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Simple speaker wire question - can multiple grounds be common?
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<div class="post-author-name"><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=13483&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39">Zeus</a></div>
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<div class="post-author-title">
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"Purveyor of Rantage"<br />
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Ars Legatus Legionis
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<div class="post-author-tribus">Tribus: In the land of Bourbon and gold</div>
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<div class="post-author-registered">Registered: Jul 28, 2000</div><div class="post-author-postcount">Posts: 17265</div>
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<a href="./viewtopic.php?p=4621222&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39#p4621222">Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:18 am</a>
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<p class="post-content-graph">Just like the title says: Can multiple speakers share a common ground? Is there some reason this would be a <I>Bad Idea</I>(TM)? With my <I>very</I> basic understanding of electrical theory, I see no problem with it.<BR><BR>I want to put a single custom-made 'plug' on my wall behind the entertainment center, which would connect to behind-the-walls wires leading to each of my 5 speakers (not worried about the subwoofer). If there are no contraindications to using a common ground, I need only use a 6-conducter plug at the wall. Otherwise (obviously) I need to move up to a 10-conducter connection.<BR><BR>I don't see a reason why a common ground would be an issue, but I'm not exactly an audiophile, and my electrical theory is pretty light.<BR><BR>What say the experts?</p>
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<div class="post-author-name"><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1844&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39">ZPrime</a></div>
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<div class="post-author-title">
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"HA-HA! Not to scale."<br />
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Ars Legatus Legionis
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<br>et <a href="/store/product-category/subscriptions/">Subscriptor</a>
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<div class="post-author-tribus">Tribus: Cleveland (Mayfield Heights), OH</div>
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<div class="post-author-registered">Registered: Jan 22, 2000</div><div class="post-author-postcount">Posts: 17875</div>
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<a href="./viewtopic.php?p=4621228&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39#p4621228">Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:51 am</a>
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<p class="post-content-graph">Why don't you just use a normal terminal block? They have nice wall-mount units that will give you 3 or 4 pairs (+ and -) of binding posts in a single-gang box size. Put in a double-gang and two of these plates and you've got your hookups.<br><br>Also, it's my understanding that the negative on an amplified speaker run is NOT ground / common across all lines. IOW, I believe it is a +/- system, rather than a positive with a ground reference. My physics/electronics knowledge isn't that great either but I think I'm getting my point across.<br><br>I mean, if you COULD share the negative across all the speakers, don't you think they would've done this already on the back of the amps?<br><br>[edit]<br>Howstuffworks tells all.<br><a href="http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/speaker5.htm" target="_blank">This animation</a> should explain why you need a separate + and - line for each speaker. -- View image here: http://episteme.arstechnica.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif --<!--graemlin::)--><br><br>The + or - voltage will make the voice coil move a different direction, which is how it produces sound at all. If you hooked the -'s together you'd have problems, and the - isn't a "ground" here, it's -.</p>
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<div class="post-author-name"><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=13483&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39">Zeus</a></div>
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<div class="post-author-title">
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"Purveyor of Rantage"<br />
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Ars Legatus Legionis
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</div>
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<div class="post-author-tribus">Tribus: In the land of Bourbon and gold</div>
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<div class="post-author-registered">Registered: Jul 28, 2000</div><div class="post-author-postcount">Posts: 17265</div>
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<a href="./viewtopic.php?p=4621225&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39#p4621225">Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:11 am</a>
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<p class="post-content-graph"><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><br /><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><br /><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The + or - voltage will make the voice coil move a different direction, which is how it produces sound at all. If you hooked the -'s together you'd have problems, and the - isn't a "ground" here, it's -. </div><br /></blockquote><br /><br><br><br>That's what I was afraid of, oh well. -- View image here: http://episteme.arstechnica.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif --<!--graemlin::(--><br><br>I was hoping to integrate a custom-built connection into my existing plate (keystone with coax and a pair of cat5 connections) and keep things to a single-gang hole.<br><br>Thanks for the input <i>before</i> I bought something that wouldn't work.</p>
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<div class="post-author-name"><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8452&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39">Jim Z</a></div>
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Ars Legatus Legionis
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<br>et <a href="/store/product-category/subscriptions/">Subscriptor</a>
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<div class="post-author-tribus">Tribus: (x) added to foe list</div>
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<div class="post-author-registered">Registered: Nov 5, 1999</div><div class="post-author-postcount">Posts: 43716</div>
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<a href="./viewtopic.php?p=4621219&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39#p4621219">Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:27 am</a>
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<p class="post-content-graph"><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><br /><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><br /><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Also, it's my understanding that the negative on an amplified speaker run is NOT ground / common across all lines. </div><br /></blockquote><br /><br><br>it can be, if the amplifier is single-ended. I think most home amplifiers are, assuming it's not bridgeable.<br><br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><br /><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><br /><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I mean, if you COULD share the negative across all the speakers, don't you think they would've done this already on the back of the amps? </div><br /></blockquote><br /><br><br>it's quite possible that they <i>do</i> actually do this inside the box. <br><br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><br /><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><br /><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">IOW, I believe it is a +/- system, rather than a positive with a ground reference. My physics/electronics knowledge isn't that great either but I think I'm getting my point across. </div><br /></blockquote><br /><br><br>a single-ended output put the signal out on the + terminal and leaves the (-) terminal as the reference ("ground," if you like.) A differential/BTL amp like in most car radios outputs signal on both terminals; the signal on (+) and its inverse on (-).<br><br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><br /><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><br /><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The + or - voltage will make the voice coil move a different direction, which is how it produces sound at all. </div><br /></blockquote><br /><br><br>right, but you can do that just fine with one signal lead and one return/ground. It works for AC mains power, after all -- View image here: http://episteme.arstechnica.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif --<!--graemlin::)--></p>
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<div class="post-author-name"><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1844&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39">ZPrime</a></div>
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"HA-HA! Not to scale."<br />
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<br>et <a href="/store/product-category/subscriptions/">Subscriptor</a>
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<div class="post-author-tribus">Tribus: Cleveland (Mayfield Heights), OH</div>
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<a href="./viewtopic.php?p=4621217&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39#p4621217">Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:55 am</a>
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<p class="post-content-graph">jz: I see... Zeus, I defer to others here because as I said, I don't know much more than basic/practical experience in this stuff.</p>
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<div class="post-author-name"><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1733&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39">Krono</a></div>
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Ars Tribunus Militum
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<br>et <a href="/store/product-category/subscriptions/">Subscriptor</a>
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<div class="post-author-registered">Registered: Nov 18, 1999</div><div class="post-author-postcount">Posts: 2302</div>
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<a href="./viewtopic.php?p=4621223&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39#p4621223">Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:53 pm</a>
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<p class="post-content-graph">If it absolutely, positively has to fit in a single-gang box, have you considered a bulk wall plate?<BR><BR>Here's a page that sells what I'm talking about:<BR><A HREF="http://www.youdoitelectronics.com/id870.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.youdoitelectronics.com/id870.htm</A></p>
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<div class="post-author-name"><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6645&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39">stud</a></div>
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Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
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<div class="post-author-registered">Registered: Mar 26, 2000</div><div class="post-author-postcount">Posts: 7811</div>
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<a href="./viewtopic.php?p=4621229&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39#p4621229">Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:05 am</a>
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<p class="post-content-graph"><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Can multiple speakers share a common ground? </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Use your multimeter to check.</p>
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"HA-HA! Not to scale."<br />
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Ars Legatus Legionis
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<br>et <a href="/store/product-category/subscriptions/">Subscriptor</a>
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<div class="post-author-tribus">Tribus: Cleveland (Mayfield Heights), OH</div>
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<div class="post-author-registered">Registered: Jan 22, 2000</div><div class="post-author-postcount">Posts: 17875</div>
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<a href="./viewtopic.php?p=4621220&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39#p4621220">Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:14 am</a>
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<p class="post-content-graph">One thing I just thought of: even if they can share a common negative lead, you need to size that lead appropriately for the wattage your amps are pushing to the speakers. I've been using 12GA all around for my speakers and each one gets its own pair of copper. This is probably overkill with the cruddy JVC receiver I have, but it is something to keep in mind. If you're trying to run every channel with a shared negative and the wire gauge is too high you could limit your sound output.</p>
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<div class="post-author-name"><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6645&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39">stud</a></div>
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Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
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<div class="post-author-registered">Registered: Mar 26, 2000</div><div class="post-author-postcount">Posts: 7811</div>
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<a href="./viewtopic.php?p=4621221&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39#p4621221">Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:26 am</a>
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<p class="post-content-graph"><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">you need to size that lead appropriately for the wattage your amps are pushing to the speakers </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Amps don't 'push' power to the speakers, speakers draw current from the amp.</p>
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<div class="post-author-name"><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3981&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39">jonah</a></div>
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Ars Praefectus
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<div class="post-author-registered">Registered: Dec 15, 1999</div><div class="post-author-postcount">Posts: 4156</div>
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<a href="./viewtopic.php?p=4621224&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39#p4621224">Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:37 pm</a>
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<p class="post-content-graph">As someone mentioned above, speakers do not use a ground at all. All they are is a positive and negative voltage. The positive voltage makes the magnet go one way, and the negative the other. It may look similar to other home wiring, but it's direct current. You can't just wire all the negative wires together - the speakers won't work properly.</p>
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<div class="post-author-name"><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8452&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39">Jim Z</a></div>
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Ars Legatus Legionis
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<div class="post-author-tribus">Tribus: (x) added to foe list</div>
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<div class="post-author-registered">Registered: Nov 5, 1999</div><div class="post-author-postcount">Posts: 43716</div>
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<a href="./viewtopic.php?p=4621230&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39#p4621230">Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:48 pm</a>
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<p class="post-content-graph">I'm going to be nicer than stud would.<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As someone mentioned above, speakers do not use a ground at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>They very well can, it depends on the amplifier design.<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">All they are is a positive and negative voltage. The positive voltage makes the magnet go one way, and the negative the other </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>right. but the amp can tie (-) to "ground" and the audio signal on (+) is then referenced to it.<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It may look similar to other home wiring, but it's direct current. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>No way. direct current will make the speaker move one way and stay there. The output of the amplifier is AC, with the "live" (+) and "neutral" (-). Just like mains power.</p>
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<div class="post-author-name"><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=170102&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39">pipe13</a></div>
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<div class="post-author-tribus">Tribus: Massachusetts</div>
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<div class="post-author-registered">Registered: Sep 27, 2004</div><div class="post-author-postcount">Posts: 2794</div>
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<a href="./viewtopic.php?p=4621226&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39#p4621226">Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:08 pm</a>
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<p class="post-content-graph">Well, as you see, whether or not (-) is common or "live" depends entirely on the amplifier. Some are single-ended, some are bridged. I'll posit for the sake of argument that *most* 5.1 HT amplifiers are single ended. But that doesn't mean all are, or will be. I have seen high-power high-end stereo amps that are bridged. And you don't know what you (or the next guy) is going to hook up to this thing in the future. <BR><BR>But if someone connects a bridged amplifier to a common-wired speaker system, severe damage will be done to the amplifier and/or its fuses. (An amplifier will not necessarily always fail to protect its fuse. Occasionally the fuse will blow first.)<BR><BR>Take ZPrime's suggestion and use standard terminal blocks. Minituratization is way overrated anyway.</p>
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<div class="post-author-name"><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=31499&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39">DriverGuru</a></div>
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Senator
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<div class="post-author-tribus">Tribus: somewhere in nonpaged pool</div>
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<div class="post-author-registered">Registered: Mar 21, 2001</div><div class="post-author-postcount">Posts: 20211</div>
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<a href="./viewtopic.php?p=4621218&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39#p4621218">Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:10 am</a>
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<p class="post-content-graph"><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">No way. direct current will make the speaker move one way and stay there. The output of the amplifier is AC, with the "live" (+) and "neutral" (-). Just like mains power. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Ah, but sometimes you have a positive live and a negative live. (And half the time, the "positive live" is actually negative with respect to the "negative live.") Just like <I>certain types</I> of mains power.</p>
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<div class="post-author-name"><a href="./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8452&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39">Jim Z</a></div>
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Ars Legatus Legionis
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<br>et <a href="/store/product-category/subscriptions/">Subscriptor</a>
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<div class="post-author-tribus">Tribus: (x) added to foe list</div>
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<div class="post-author-registered">Registered: Nov 5, 1999</div><div class="post-author-postcount">Posts: 43716</div>
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<a href="./viewtopic.php?p=4621227&sid=1b1854e1706322c51ba4f2b5d4979a39#p4621227">Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:04 am</a>
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<p class="post-content-graph"><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DriverGuru:<BR><BR>Ah, but sometimes you have a positive live and a negative live. (And half the time, the "positive live" is actually negative with respect to the "negative live.") Just like <I>certain types</I> of mains power. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>-<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jz78817:<BR>a single-ended output put the signal out on the + terminal and leaves the (-) terminal as the reference ("ground," if you like.) A differential/BTL amp like in most car radios outputs signal on both terminals; the signal on (+) and its inverse on (-). </div></BLOCKQUOTE></p>
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